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Hi Al:
You believe apparently that Dave Hunt is a heretic because you disagree with him theologically.

It is sort of Ironic that the sentence above your response reads “A fan of Dave Hunt has informed me I'm not born again because I am a Calvinist.” So in response you say that Dave Hunt is not saved (i.e. is a heretic). Does someone have to agree with you 100% to not be a heretic? James White for example is a Reformed Baptist. He believes in baptism and not sprinkling. Should others who follow more closely to reformed believes consider him a heretic? Do you believe in Supralapsarianism or Infralapsarianims? Both are reformed and folks that have held to one of these have considered those that held to the other to be heretics.

Attacking another brother in Christ and labeling them a heretic because you disagree with aspects of their theology is not the way to win them to your viewpoint. Folks who deny the Trinity, Jesus’ atonement and propitiation for sin, etc. of course are heretics. I believe from my readings of James White that he would believe Hunt was saved, but incorrect in his theology.

Mike!
How are you doing? Rebecca mentions your posts every now and then. I very rarely visit Facebook (maybe once a month). I finished my STM this summer so I may have to join in some of the theological discussions … hmm… : )
November 11 at 10:18am

david hunt is saved he is saved by grace through faith. i happen to admire his ministry but i also think that James white is saved because he has been saved by grace through faith. sure Calvinists and other types of Christians disagree on the extras but on the essentials we stand together under Christ. PS I'm not Calvinist and disagree with some of the teachings but i would NEVER SAY that someone isn't;t saved because they disagrees on the extras in scripture that is shire foolishness. Christ has sealed them both until the day of redemption.. the lord bless you guys.

the essentials are obvious that you believe in the trinity father son and holy ghost that they are three persons yet one god. that you believe Jesus is god and died on the cross and rose from the dead to propitiate for you sin. that Christ. was born of a virgin and that you understand that you must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven and repent for the remission of your sins so you will be saved. and the scripture also talks about two kingdoms that of the kingdom of darkness( of which i was in for 20 years) and the kingdom of light and when i was saved i suddenly saw there was a devil evil and there was heaven and that Jesus was my creator and god and that i was evil and needed saving from my fate of going to hell. Jesus saved me from that and that is what Dave hunt teaches and i believe so does James white.. a heretic is someone who says Jesus is not god or that the trinity is paganism. or that Jesus never rose from the dead. or that Jesus went to the cross to teach us how to live all of that is heretical and evil given by doctrine of demons.. just thought you should think about it..See More

November 11 at 11:11am

http://www.thebereancall.o rg/node/4981
here is the VERY SOUND statement of faith from Dave hunt also here is the VERY SOUND statement of faith from James white
http://www.aomin.org/artic les/statement.html
they both believe in the essentials of the gospel praise god.. sure we disagree in the extras but thats OK. the lord bless you :)

i must say i have never seen Dave hunt as an Arminian Luis he's pretty similar to what i believe. I'm don't believe in Arminianism or Calvinism i believe in scripture.. lol i personally believe that they are both extremes but i still would... say that they are saved due to their statement of faith being sound hugszz Luis and thanks for thinking of me maybe Jesus wants you pray for me.. my ear is getting better slowly but surely hun much love in Jesus Arminianism says you can loose your salvation i don't believe that and neither does Dave hunt. i think your sealed for eternity and that Christ has covered all my sin . Calvinism teaches eternal salvation and that you can't loose it. i believe that I'm just a bible believing Christian. i do believe Christ will come before the tribulation and that Christ will take us up into the air. but i certainly don't think its about that you MUST BE READY because once your saved and sealed you are ready.

its seriously NOT about weather you believe in mans interpretation of the bible ie Calvinism or Arminianism Christ never says in scripture if you are Calvinist you are not saved or Arminian you are not saved. he says that you are saved by... grace through faith and not of yourself lest no man should boast. God is NOT gonna talk about Calvinism when we die he will know weather you have repented or not.. and on that basis alone will he let you into heaven.. as far as saying James white is the MOST AMAZING CHRISTIAN MAN EVER is very much like worshipping him as a Idol He is just a sinner saved by grace like the rest of us .. the most amazing person that ever lived is only JESUS praise God.. and its not man that judges the heart its God..

Seems any man who makes a statement that Calvinist aren't Christian's has made a few rather harsh judgments of his own and may be worthy of some criticism. I don't know Mr. Hunt but, he is probably one of the same bunch who think that the ...doctrine of election makes God a monster. This discussion always makes me wonder how the spirit of truth would lead Arminian's into different truth then the real truth of election taught throughout scripture. And we're not talking about small differences, many doctrines of scripture are corrupted under the Arminian interpretation of scripture..I know Arminians are heading someplace, I'm just not sure where that is? I know the God of scripture and his spirit of truth are not confused about his Sovereign election.

Yes Al I will have to answer to God for truly believing that both James White and David Hunt are brothers in Christ I was like you once (for several years). I was a strong 5 point Calvinist I believed every bit of it. I attended a very... strong, conservative PCA church during the time I worked at Teen Challenge and introduced Mike to Calvinism I defended my reformed beliefs while in a conservative a conservative Arminian/Pentecostal seminary.

There was a turning point though in my life that caused me to stop and really re-evaluate my Reformed beliefs: years ago I was chatting in James White’s chat group (I don’t know about now, but then he was involved a lot in the group). At the time I believed strongly in all 5 points, sprinkling and loved it! The only place I differed from the accepted norm was with whether the gifts of the Holy Spirit had ended or continued today (I believe very closely with Wayne Grudem). The other members in the chat group proceeded to do everything they could to tear me apart (according to them I was pretty darn close to being a heretic because of difference in one doctrine on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit). I remember getting out of the chat and thinking how unloving and unkind they were. At that point I prayed and decided to spend time just in God’s Word and not read a lot of the Reformed books anymore (I’ve read almost all of Sprouls, Whites, etc.). In interesting thing happened to me: my beliefs about God began to change. I once again came to have a deeper understanding of God’s love for all people. I also learned to have compassion and show love for those that I differed with on issues that do not involve doctrines that I consider to be essential to salvation.

Another thing that has really ‘stuck out’ at me is how both Arminians and Calvinists use straw man arguments or in other ways distort what the ‘other side’ really believes.
I guess I did not make my ‘point’ very well with the “Supralapsarian and Infralapsarian” statement. My point I guess was that as one who is a “Supralapsarian” do you believe that those who are “Infralapsarians” are heretics?

Just because you disagree with someone on an issue that does not mean they are not saved. You believe strongly in Grace that is great. I would encourage you to show grace AND love towards others.

Hi Lori:
Dave Hunt does not label himself as an Arminian He tries to pick a middle ground between Calvinism and Arminianism I would place him closer to being an Arminian Just like those who believe in Reformed theology often differ on some doctrines, there are a variety of beliefs on the Arminian side.

Al: I agree with you 100% that Dave Hunt is not Reformed. He holds to beliefs though that Arminianism has not traditionally held (such as eternal security). So if someone holds a belief that is not reformed and not Arminian what should ...we call it? (Just because a belief is not 'reformed' does not necessarily mean it is by default an Arminian belief. I have not read Hunt in several years, though I have most of his books (as well as Sprouls, whites, and a lot of other reformed books). I would like to go look it up... can you tell me in which book he says that Calvinists (I always preferred the term Reformed) are not saved?

Thanks,
Matt

Calvinism isn't really Calvinism it is just a label for election. It can be traced back to the Synod of Dort where the whole reformed church convened to hear the arguments of the followers of Arminius. As both Calvin and Arminius were dead.... The reformed church wanted to reaffirm this precious doctrine that they had fought with their blood to secure. The Arminian's said the same thing when they arrived at the table, they said; "we believe just like you do, we just have a few things that we don't agree with." The Synod rejected them as heretics and they ended up walking out, as they could not defend their perverted doctrine, and it is perverted! They have a different God - their God is not sovereign enough to elect those to salvation. They have a different Jesus - their Jesus didn't mean what he said when he talked about those whom the father had given to him, many are called but few are chosen, etc..

If the spirit of truth be in a born again believer, he will affirm the doctrine of election as being scriptural truth. Historical Christianity has always rejected the heresy of freewill, but today men are men pleasers, if you want to build churches you can't tell the congregation that God has only chosen a select few for salvation and the rest can't come! Why, you would clear out most buildings. They would say; I could never serve a God like that, he is a monster! I have the evidence so there is no dispute that's what the average Arminian has determined about a God who elects those unto eternal life. There is no middle ground, God doesn't have middle grounds, he does the choosing. In fact he does it all!

[indulge me for a bit more]
Calvin was a brilliant man of God. However,many ascribe election theology to Calvin, I adamantly disagree as he wasn't born when these passages of scripture were inspired. continued...

It is GOD who draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65), creates a clean heart (Psalm 51:10), appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48), works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4), chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13-14), grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29), grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26), calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9) causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3), predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30), predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5), predestines us according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11), makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13).

November 11 at 6:41pm

yes mathew i totally agree with you. unfortunately i was in a church that was extremely Arminian for a long time and it left me frightened and confused. they said i could loose my salvation. so i was always frightened that if i sinned id end up in hell but then i went to a baptist church and they taught me the truth and show me scripture to back it up that i was sealed until the day of redemption it was a HUGE relief to my soul. and yes your right Dave hunt is neither Arminian nor Calvinist he is a biblical Christian. that understands its by grace we are saved through faith and NOT OF OURSELVES lest no man should boast.

Hi Lori: the church I attend now is Presbyterian, but it is probably closer in theology to what is taught at many Baptist churches. The Baptist churches I have attended have generally had a real love for teaching the Bible.

I guess Al doesn't want to talk anymore.... he has blocked me from seeing his posts. Al... you may hate and despise me but I promise you this... I will keep you in my prayers.

Oh, you haven't heard Matthew? Take your pick transcript or video or both if you like. This comes from Paul Washer with great Baptist leanings, but he's not the only one who recognizes this pure adulterated heresy, it's been around for some... time. I'm guessing you haven't heard the truth about Billy Graham either? Lastly Matthew, God can regenerate anyone he wants, even in false doctrine, but once they see the truth they will run from the heresy of freewill.

It's a two hour video but, you will learn a lot if you like truth!

http://adidab.wordpress.co m/2009/05/05/paul-washer-t ranscript-03-ten-indictmen ts/

billy graham is in bed with the catholic church and NEVER has been saved he is a freemason. so you can't compare anyone to him. he thinks there are many ways to god...heres a video for you to look at
http://www.youtube.com/wat ch?v=4MZWug3Q...Avs&feature=fvw

Matthew you like to pray? Pray that God would remove the knife from my heart that this 30 second prayer has caused for numerous years. It has filled the church with tares, false converts! Pray that God would remove the blinders of men who defend the heresy of freewill [like yourself], pray that men would stop trying to build God's church! Pray that God would bring judgment on his church, thereby cleaning it up, so that the true body can get back to true worship. Ask God to take the blinders off all of those whom are his elect, and keep the blinders on those who aren't!

I could clip the "cliff notes" as you call them and make your job easy, but you need to take it all in, when you have time of course. Take the time, pray over these things, I mean really pray! Many say their prayers today, not many pray! Ask God to take us to the depths of his word, teach us to pray according to his will. Come back after you have had a chance to digest this message, until then keep these things in prayer....Won't you?

well Bill Christ called me by his loving kindness he spoke scripture to me in my dreams that i had never heard of before and didn;t understand it. i heard the true gospel in June 88 and after a lot of fighting it one day in Aug. 88 god literally took the veil away from my eyes i repented and asked god to forgive me for my wickedness and that also to forgive me for living for the devil. i did not do my 33 secs of prayer that is just plain ridiculous. you are really exaggerating also know a baptist young man who was in bed with his gf and god showed him his wickedness and very soon after that he repented but it took months and months were god was drawing him with his loving kindness and i have scores of testimonies where god REALLY calls them and the fruit is there.

and i agree with you there is noo 30 second repentance in scripture
watch what I'm writing. I'm saying that i know many baptist who were called by god and it took them ages to get saved.. and god took the veil away from their eyes..please read... what i said.

here's more on prayer from my post today....add it to my prayer to Matthew....

What shall we say to those who pray, yet give but little time to their prayers ? We are obliged to say that they show at present very little of the mind of Christ Asking little, they must expect to have little. Seeking little, they cannot be surprised if they possess little. It will always be found that when prayers are few, grace,strength, peace, and hope are small.

It may be feared, in the list of baptized people, many who rise up in the morning without prayer, and without prayer lie down at night, many who never speak one word to God. Are they Christians ? It is impossible to say so. A praying Master, like Jesus, can have no prayerless servants. The Spirit of adoption will always make a man call upon God. To be prayerless is to be Christless, Godless, and in the high road

Hi Bill:
I will respond to the excellent message of Paul in several postings below.
Before I do, I thought I would comment on your statement: “Pray that God would remove the blinders of men who defend the heresy of freewill [like yourself]...,”
Unless I miss-typed something, I don’t believe I ever said I believed in ‘Freewill’… at least not as Calvinists often state it. I do not believe that any person can come to God of their own free will. I do not believe that any person of their own free will has any desire to come to Christ or to make Jesus the Lord of their live. The unsaved have no desire for God… in fact they are opposed to God to the core of their being. God has to change them, empower them, give them the desire.

Hi Bill:
After reading through Paul's transcript, unless I missed something, I completely agree with everything he said. I book marked the link for later. excellent!
Ten Points:
1. First of all, the first indictment: a practical denial of the sufficiency of Scripture,
2. The second indictment: An ignorance of God.
3. The third indictment: A failure to address man’s malady.
4. Our fourth indictment: An ignorance of the gospel of Jesus Christ
5. An ignorance of the doctrine of regeneration, an ignorance of the doctrine of regeneration.
6. Fifth indictment: An unbiblical gospel invitation.
7. Sixth indictment: Ignorance regarding the nature of the Church.
8. Eighth indictment: A silence on separation. [living a life of holiness]
9. I have a ninth indictment . . . Psychology and sociology have replaced the Scriptures with regard to the family.
10. (I didn’t see a tenth point… )

He had several statements on Love, We must reach out with the truth in love. The truth is hard and should not be compromised, but the truth can be shared in love:
“If you are a younger minister, I do not want you to get caught up in these truths and take them back and storm your church without love.” and
“When you do not deal specifically, passionately, lovingly with men and their depraved condition, the Holy Spirit is nowhere around you.”

Paul Washer does not automatically condemn Wesley (though he may disagree with him on some biblical teachings, he does not consider him to be a heretic).
“I’ll tell you what the issue is. Regeneration. And that is why I can have fellowship with Wesley and Ravenhill and Tozer and all the rest because regardless of where they stood on the other issues they believed that salvation could not be manipulated by the preacher, that it was a magnificent work of the power of almighty God. And with them, therefore, I stand, that it was a work of God.”
And
“Have you ever sat down on an airplane or maybe met someone in a marketplace you didn’t even know and you being maybe Baptist or Mennonite or this or that, but truly evangelical, truly Christian., you talk to him for no more than few minutes and you discover, “He is a believer. This is a live one.”

Paul Washer believes that there are Christians in other denominations (in fact he stated there were probably some in the audience to whom he was speaking… The topics he is discussing are not Calvinism VS Arminianism issues:
“My dear friends..., and I am going to say this bluntly, I know that there are Calvinists here and I know that there are Arminians here and I know that there are all sorts of strange animals in between, but I want you to know this. Although I am leaning more toward—I guess I call myself a five point Spurgeonist—I want you to know this. Calvinism is not the issue.”
---------------------
Thanks again for the link to this transcript!

we were talking about the 30 second prayer and it's heresy, or did you forget that....Not Arminianism

after all of what [five posts] you danced around this part. I do believe this is where we left off, wasn't it?

You say. “Brother Paul…”
...Yes, in the same way that infant baptism, in my opinion, was the golden calf of the Reformation, for the Baptists and the Evangelicals and everyone else who has followed them today, I will tell you, that sinners’ prayer has sent more people to hell than anything on the face of the earth.

You must stay with the topical change when it occurs. So, we digress Paul says he's a five point Spurgeonist by the way, whatever that means. When your tight with the Baptist's if you want any work, it's best not to discuss Calvinism I know where he's coming from. Were you not defending this man who claims Calvinists are unsaved? I believe you said he was not Arminian or a Calvinist If a man defends another man who is Arminian I assume he's one of that crowd. Paul Washer preaches Calvinist doctrine, whether he wants to identify or not, isn't my problem.

Hi Bill:
"Were you not defending this man who claims Calvinists are unsaved? " Actually what I had said previously was that after having read most of his books I don't remember him ever saying Calvinists were not saved. If he did say that I... would of course disagree with him... just as I would disagree with someone on Facebook who says that a person is a heretic (hence unsaved) if they are NOT a Calvinist

"If a man defends another man who is Arminian I assume he's one of that crowd." Did I defend his beliefs? I don't think so. What I did defend is that I believe he is a Christian. (I don't believe everyone has to believe exactly as I do in order to be saved).

"Paul Washer preaches Calvinist doctrine, whether he wants to identify or not, isn't my problem." I agree with what Paul taught in the transcript that I read. Whether you are Reformed, 'Someplace in between', or Arminian, a Christian. could believe 100% what he said.

As far as the '30 second prayer' I agree that there are many, many folks in churches who said a prayer one time in their lives and believe they are saved, yet show no holiness or purity in their lives. I have met many people over the years that do not have the slightest interest in things of God. They live lives of habitual sin, yet believe they are saved because of a prayer. Sadly they will someday recognize their error too late. The Bible is very plain in teaching that a true disciple of Christ will have the fruit of the Spirit. If there is no fruit, there is no life. This fruit of the spirit should also be displayed/exercised towards other Christians whom we may disagree with (1 John 2:9 "Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness..."See More

I have no idea who is my brother is when they disagree with scripture Matthew, and when I preach to one; whether he's save or not is not for me to decide. The truth as all costs, I'll worry about offending someone when I say my prayers asking for forgiveness. Many use the unloving scriptures today to persuade others that they are wrong in their insistence of truth, warning the God fearing man or women to accept them and their doctrine of demons with open arms or they are in violation of scripture, what a foolish argument, and worse, misplaced and misquoted scripture always taken out of context.

Why I Am No Longer a Calvinist - A Facebook Debate There are many beliefs and teachings that contribute to friction and fighting between Christians. I have found over the years that having theological discussions with those whom I may disagree with can be a growing experience for me as it forces me to look at what I believe and why I believe it. The theological differences between Calvinists and Arminianists is the main topic of debate here. The debate between Christians holding to either view can be good, as long as it is done in love. Those holding to the extremes of either position though are often not open to constructive discussion (discussion/debate done in love) I very rarely go on 'Facebook', but recently I did in response to a post on an old friends Facebook page. The left column contains the actual exchange. The text is exactly as was written (nothing has been changed - except the names of those involved). The right column contains some of my comments for this article that were NOT part of the original postings. (I have put certain words from the original in Bold). I think you will find an example of a small segment of Calvinism that puts all of its emphasis on God's Sovereignty and ignores both God's Love and God's command to love others.
This column contains the original posts from our Facebook discussion (exactly as written: unchanged and unedited - except the individuals names have been changed).	This column contains some comments and further responses to the posts on Facebook (these were not part of the original interaction).
Calvinists are Not Christians? www.youtube.com A fan* of Dave Hunt has informed me I'm not born again because I am a Calvinist. He sent some questions, too. I respond.*	The discussion resulted from a video by James white being posted to the Facebook page. In this video James White discusses how Troy Brooks wrote to James White to say White was not a Christian. (A quick Google search would have pointed out to the reader that Troy Brooks is a little extreme in some of his beliefs also). [For another response to this video by James White we also have the following article on our site: James White Responds to Troy Brooks.] Here are some Quotes from the Video by James White: "I informed him that thankfully not even Dave Hunt or Norm Geisler has gone that far." [ James White admits that neither Dave Hunt nor Norman Geisler teach that Calvinists are not Christian. The 'followers' of James Whte in the exchange below go on to attribute this to Dave Hunt which is bearing false witness to something Hunt does not teach] After watching the video I came to the conclusion that James Whites 'followers' are only mirroring the attitude and demeanor of White. Here are just a few examples from Whites video: White calls the theology of those he disagrees with 'heretical.' [Hence I guess why Whites followers believe it is ok to call 'heretical' anyone who is not a staunch 5 point Calvinists like themselves] White states that "Troy Brooks' won't read my books." [Troy Brooks did not say he had never read any of James Whites books. He said he 'didn't have time to read all of them.' Jame Whites books are not inspired by God! Only the Bible is! "Arminian Theology" is separate from Biblical Christianity." [For James White Arminian Theology is not part of Christianity. Those who hold to Arminian Theology are not Christians. Hence if follows that it is ok for his followers to call those who love Jesus but may not be 5 point Calvinists 'Heretics' and unsaved!] "Mr. Brooks is confused about these issues because Mr. Hunt is confused about these issues." [If you watch James Whites video please tell me honestly: do you see or hear any sense of humility? Or does he appear to be arrogant and puffed up?] Ok, lets look at the rest of the postings:

Al: Dave Hunt is a heretic and a BIG ONE! I hate all these things he keeps saying about James White, one of my favorite Calvinistic people. November 10 at 9:51pm	First 'Al' starts off by calling Dave Hunt a heretic (and a 'BIG ONE'). Remember, anyone who disagrees with 5 point Calvinism is a heretic according to these folks. Al attributes something to Dave Hunt that he never said (that Calvinists are not Christians). For Al it is ok to 'hate' those that disagree because according to his beliefs they are NOT Christians. I disagree with him and I believe the following verses apply: 1John 2:9 The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. 10 The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes. (1Jo 2:9-11 NAU) 1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the Brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. (1Jo 3:14-15 NAU) Leviticus19:18 'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD. (Lev 19:18 NAU) Matthew 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, (Mat 5:43-44 NAU)

Luis: This is really excellent! Thank you for posting! I am reposting, as well. November 11 at 9:39am

Matthew Hi Al: You believe apparently that Dave Hunt is a heretic because you disagree with him theologically. It is sort of Ironic that the sentence above your response reads “A fan of Dave Hunt has informed me I'm not born again because I am a Calvinist.” So in response you say that Dave Hunt is not saved (i.e. is a heretic). Does someone have to agree with you 100% to not be a heretic? James White for example is a Reformed Baptist. He believes in baptism and not sprinkling. Should others who follow more closely to reformed believes consider him a heretic? Do you believe in Supralapsarianism or Infralapsarianims? Both are reformed and folks that have held to one of these have considered those that held to the other to be heretics. Attacking another brother in Christ and labeling them a heretic because you disagree with aspects of their theology is not the way to win them to your viewpoint. Folks who deny the Trinity, Jesus’ atonement and propitiation for sin, etc. of course are heretics. I believe from my readings of James White that he would believe Hunt was saved, but incorrect in his theology. Mike! How are you doing? Rebecca mentions your posts every now and then. I very rarely visit Facebook (maybe once a month). I finished my STM this summer so I may have to join in some of the theological discussions … hmm… : ) November 11 at 10:18am	When I wrote this, I did not realize that James White was now calling those who disagree with strict 5 point Calvinists heretics. I guess on further reflection we become like those that we associate with. We take on the beliefs and attitudes of those we read and listen to... at least to some degree. I tried to point out that even among Calvinists there is disagreement on many issues such as baptism, church polity, and many other areas. I was trying to find out how narrowly Al defines who is a true 'Christian.' "I believe from my readings of James White that he would believe Hunt was saved, but incorrect in his theology." After further study I might change this. James White does not overtly call those who are not Calvinists "unsaved", but he does say that only Calvinist Theology is Biblical Theology. Accordingly the leap can be made that Arminian Theology is not Biblical Theology and those holding to it are not saved. Some of James Whites followers seem to have come to this conclusion.

Lori: david hunt is saved he is saved by grace through faith. i happen to admire his ministry but i also think that James white is saved because he has been saved by grace through faith. sure Calvinists and other types of Christians disagree on the extras but on the essentials we stand together under Christ. PS I'm not Calvinist and disagree with some of the teachings but i would NEVER SAY that someone isn't;t saved because they disagrees on the extras in scripture that is shire foolishness. Christ has sealed them both until the day of redemption.. the lord bless you guys.	Lori has several responses/posts during this discussion. She approaches those she disagrees with consistently with love. She attempts several times to make her point that folks, other than just 5 point Calvinists can be saved, but is rebuffed. Her words speak for themselves...

Lori: the essentials are obvious that you believe in the trinity father son and holy ghost that they are three persons yet one god. that you believe Jesus is god and died on the cross and rose from the dead to propitiate for you sin. that Christ. was born of a virgin and that you understand that you must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven and repent for the remission of your sins so you will be saved. and the scripture also talks about two kingdoms that of the kingdom of darkness( of which i was in for 20 years) and the kingdom of light and when i was saved i suddenly saw there was a devil evil and there was heaven and that Jesus was my creator and god and that i was evil and needed saving from my fate of going to hell. Jesus saved me from that and that is what Dave hunt teaches and i believe so does James white.. a heretic is someone who says Jesus is not god or that the trinity is paganism. or that Jesus never rose from the dead. or that Jesus went to the cross to teach us how to live all of that is heretical and evil given by doctrine of demons.. just thought you should think about it..See More November 11 at 11:11am

Lori: much love you guys :) November 11 at 11:13am · Lori: http://www.thebereancall.o rg/node/4981 here is the VERY SOUND statement of faith from Dave hunt also here is the VERY SOUND statement of faith from James white http://www.aomin.org/artic les/statement.html they both believe in the essentials of the gospel praise god.. sure we disagree in the extras but thats OK. the lord bless you :) November 11 at 11:20am	She gives two links - one to Dave Hunts website and the other to James Whites website.

Luis: Hey, Lori! I was just thinking about you! I pray you've been well. I've read a couple of books by David Hunt, and I have found his research on the New World Order and New Age in the church very interesting, but I don't agree with his eschatology. I don't know doctrinally where he stands on other issues, but is it safe to say that since he is a dispensationalist and pre-tribber, that he also leans towards Arminianism? November 11 at 2:29pm ·

Mike: Al, his name is Matthew not Michael. I am sure he knows that you are responding to him. November 11 at 3:55pm

Al: thanks for the correction Mike

Al: Matthew, you are soooo mistaken in what you said and yes I do label Dave Hunt as a heretic because he is. Nobody has the right to accuse James White of being unsaved. James White is perhaps the greatest Christian man Alive that I know of ......and his consistency in interpreting Scripture is beyond a blessing to me. The only true gospel taught by the Bible is called the 'gospel of God's free and sovereign grace' and this is found in the Bible and in Calvinism. Whoever rejects Calvinism is a heretic. The Arminian gospel is a damnable heresy and so is all of Arminianism It portrays a false god who is a weak beggar. I do not know where in Scripture is God described as a weak beggar. Jesus is a powerful savior who saves His people perfectly. Dave Hunt believes that salvation is by grace + works so I am sorry Michael, he is a heretic. If you want to support him and this damnable heresy of Arminianism, you will answer to God for that. November 11 at 3:56pm ·	Dave Hunt did not accuse James White of being unsaved. Al refuses to admit this. Dave Hunt may disagree on the 5 Points of Calvinism with James White, but he did not call him a heretic or unsaved. I point out later on that Dave Hunt did not say this to Al. Since Al afterwards says this again... is he slandering and bearing false witness against the character of Dave Hunt for something he did not say? Matthew 15:19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. (Mat 15:19 NAU) " James White is perhaps the greatest Christian man Alive..." I know of no Christians that have 'perfect' theology and I worship no one except God. If Al believes James White has reached perfection in his theology... Al very plainly and distinctly says that the only true Gospel is the Calvinist Gospel and those who reject Calvinism are heretics (unsaved and destined for hell). "Dave Hunt believes that salvation is by grace + works" I believe that Al needs to go back and read Dave Hunt's book(s) again. He does not teach grace + works. Calvinists often accuse Arminians of teaching this, but it is untrue and a straw man argument.

Al: You asked if I was a supralapsarian or an infralapsarian and the answer is that I am a supralapsarian. I believe God does reprobate those who He has not chosen for salvation. He does not merely pass over them. Also supralapsarianism puts God high up on His throne where He belongs, unlike infralapsarian. I also believe in double predestination, not single predestination. If someone understood just how inherently evil we are by nature, they would not have trouble with these teachings, which come right from Scripture.	If someone understood just how inherently evil we are by nature, they would not have trouble with these teachings, which come right from Scripture. I would agree with Al that we are born with a sin nature ('Total Depravity'). I disagree though with his belief that believing in the depravity of man automatically leads to Supralapsarianism which is God predestinating (choosing and bringing about) both those who are saved and those who are going to suffer in hell for all eternity. Al's God feels no compassion, love,or concern for those who are not chosen to be one of His "Elect." Some (Calvinists) may say that those in hell 'chose' hell, but in the Calvinists scheme of double predestination, the unsaved have absolutely no choice or chance to change their destination. In double predestination God desired, plans, and ensures they will never be saved. Many (but not all) Supralapsarian Calvinists also believe God has no love for those who are unsaved. We become (to an extent) like the God we worship. If you worship a God who ONLY loves those He has specifically decided arbitrarily to save (the elect) and actively hates the unsaved (with no love for them) is it any wonders they become less loving towards those they disagree with?

Al: There, now I made the correction! November 11 at 3:57pm

Lori: i must say i have never seen Dave hunt as an Arminian Luis he's pretty similar to what i believe. I'm don't believe in Arminianism or Calvinism i believe in scripture.. lol i personally believe that they are both extremes but i still would... say that they are saved due to their statement of faith being sound hugszz Luis and thanks for thinking of me maybe Jesus wants you pray for me.. my ear is getting better slowly but surely hun much love in Jesus Arminianism says you can loose your salvation i don't believe that and neither does Dave hunt. i think your sealed for eternity and that Christ has covered all my sin . Calvinism teaches eternal salvation and that you can't loose it. i believe that I'm just a bible believing Christian. i do believe Christ will come before the tribulation and that Christ will take us up into the air. but i certainly don't think its about that you MUST BE READY because once your saved and sealed you are ready. November 11 at 4:19pm

Al: I don't know if Hunt labels himself as an Arminian but I have been overly concerned with MANY things he has said (which sound Arminian). There are many people who are called 'Arminians who are afraid to admit it.' He failed miserably in trying to refute James White's book 'the Potter's freedom'. You can't get around this topic that God is free to choose who He wants to save. It's right smack dab in the Bible and people still try to avoid it and say it's not true. November 11 at 4:22pm	Dave Hunts book "What Love is This?" is not an attempt to specifically refute James Whites book "The Potter's Freedom." White is mentioned several times in Hunts book, but the attempt is to refute 5 point Calvinism, not James White. The world does not revolve around James White (though Al may believe it does). "...God is free to choose who He wants to save." Nobody disagrees that God is free to choose who he wants to save. The difference between 5 point Calvinism and Arminianism is on what basis God chooses. In Calvinism, God chooses arbitrarily (that is based on nothing the person will or would ever believe or do) who will be saved, and chooses who He 'desires' to send to hell. Arminians believe that God foreknows who will believe when presented with the Gospel and elects (chooses) those to save. It does not diminish God's Sovereignty for Him to choose to save those whom He draws, convicts, and comes to Him any more than a arbitrary choosing based on some hidden 'mystery' within Himself.

Lori: its seriously NOT about weather you believe in mans interpretation of the bible ie Calvinism or Arminianism Christ never says in scripture if you are Calvinist you are not saved or Arminian you are not saved. he says that you are saved by... grace through faith and not of yourself lest no man should boast. God is NOT gonna talk about Calvinism when we die he will know weather you have repented or not.. and on that basis alone will he let you into heaven.. as far as saying James white is the MOST AMAZING CHRISTIAN MAN EVER is very much like worshipping him as a Idol He is just a sinner saved by grace like the rest of us .. the most amazing person that ever lived is only JESUS praise God.. and its not man that judges the heart its God.. November 11 at 4:23pm	I agree with everything Lori says here...

Al: I meant that he is the most amazing in terms of his knowledge of Scripture and in properly interpreting Scripture. White is not my idol. Do not presume things without making sure first. November 11 at 4:24pm	James White may not be 'your idol', but you appear to believe that James White is 'perfect' in his teachings and beliefs.

Al: Lori, Arminianism rejects the idea that man is saved by grace alone. It is grace + works, sorry! November 11 at 4:24pm	Calvinists seem to believe that Faith = Works. Faith is not a work, no matter how much Calvinists protest.

Lori: well Al you are making presumptions about Dave's salvation read his statement of faith which i put up its very very sound November 11 at 4:24pm ·	Lori still seems to mistakenly think that Al is open to understanding what others really believe. Al is not interested in truly understanding what Hunt's beliefs really are. Besides, Al has already pre-judged all of those that disagree with his 5 point Calvinism Why would Al want to go to a 'heretics' website (heretic according to Al that is).

Al: .......yeah I'm sure Dave Hunt is very very sound. November 11 at 4:25pm ·

Lori: well I'm not Arminian neither is david it is by grace that you are saved not of yourself lest no man shall boast so i agree with you on that cause that is scripture. I'm a bible believing Christian. and both Calvinism and Arminianism are both extremes. thats what i believe but i know you are saved cause you have repented and you are saved by grace through faith so i will see you in glory praise god.. :) so because of the essentials we are brother and sister in Christ November 11 at 4:27pm	Lori, in love, attempts to extend an olive branch in peace.

Lori: well thats ok if you choose to believe that hes not saved without doing fair research on the guy. Dave hunt is saved and i will meet him in glory good nite gots to go to bed nite nite :) November 11 at 4:28pm

Al: whatever November 11 at 4:29pm

Lori: you don't have to be rude. i was being kind to you the lord bless you.. nite nite November 11 at 4:29pm

Bill: Seems any man who makes a statement that Calvinist aren't Christian's has made a few rather harsh judgments of his own and may be worthy of some criticism. I don't know Mr. Hunt but, he is probably one of the same bunch who think that the ...doctrine of election makes God a monster. This discussion always makes me wonder how the spirit of truth would lead Arminian's into different truth then the real truth of election taught throughout scripture. And we're not talking about small differences, many doctrines of scripture are corrupted under the Arminian interpretation of scripture..I know Arminians are heading someplace, I'm just not sure where that is? I know the God of scripture and his spirit of truth are not confused about his Sovereign election. November 11 at 5:33pm	"Seems any man who makes a statement that Calvinist aren't Christian's..." I'm not sure why I keep having to repeat this... but Dave Hunt NEVER said this. Bill admits "I don't know Hunt" but he can make sweeping and unfair indictments against him. While Al just comes out and calls all Arminians heretics, Bill is just 'unsure' whether they are going to hell.

Al: the only basic reason why someone would go so far as to have the audacity to say that Calvinists are not Christians is summed up in one simple 5-letter word, "FLESH." Like I have been telling many people lately, Calvinism completely brings man down (just as the Bible does) to the point where it leaves him no room for boasting. The flesh has no tolerance for hearing something like that. November 11 at 5:36pm	"Calvinism completely brings man down..." I assume this means makes him humble (as opposed to boasting)? Does the video by James White look like a humble man or someone who looks down on those little 'heretical' Arminians? While anyone can be prideful, the arrogance and pride of many 5 point Calvinists is rather high (after all, they think only they are saved and have the truth...). I believe that Calvinism emphasizes God' sovereignty to such an extent that they 'bring God down' by making Him less than He is: a God who is both sovereign AND Loving! In the process of trying to explain who God is they re-interpret verses that taken at face value (i.e. read for what they actually say) show God's great love.(see here an article by John MacArthur on God's Love and how John 3:16 is abused by some Calvinists).

Al: Besides, the Lord has given me tremendous peace lately in boldly acknowledging and admitting my total unworthiness, undeservedness, and filth that lives inside me and my heart (Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 11:33-36). November 11 at 5:39pm ·

Bill: I'm lower than snake sweat.... November 11 at 5:43pm

Al: I think if someone TRULY understood just how inherently evil we are by nature, they should not have a problem with Calvinism November 11 at 5:46pm

Bill: the fall was big, it wasn't just a little tumble as many project it. So, we are in total agreement Al... November 11 at 5:53pm

Al: this is what I keep having to tell people who tell me that God is under obligation to offer salvation to all people else this would not be love. November 11 at 5:56pm	Under Obligation? Arminians do not teach God is under some arbitrary external obligation. They do teach that God is by nature a God of love. God desires to offer salvation to all. God desires all to be saved (not just a few he pics for heaven and the rest he desires to burn in hell). God does not desire that the wicked perish and go to hell. (see the verses a few posts below on God's offer of salvation and love for all people).

Mike: Well said, Al November 11 at 6:07pm

Matthew: Yes Al I will have to answer to God for truly believing that both James White and David Hunt are brothers in Christ I was like you once (for several years). I was a strong 5 point Calvinist I believed every bit of it. I attended a very... strong, conservative PCA church during the time I worked at Teen Challenge and introduced Mike to Calvinism I defended my reformed beliefs while in a conservative a conservative Arminian/Pentecostal seminary. There was a turning point though in my life that caused me to stop and really re-evaluate my Reformed beliefs: years ago I was chatting in James White’s chat group (I don’t know about now, but then he was involved a lot in the group). At the time I believed strongly in all 5 points, sprinkling and loved it! The only place I differed from the accepted norm was with whether the gifts of the Holy Spirit had ended or continued today (I believe very closely with Wayne Grudem). The other members in the chat group proceeded to do everything they could to tear me apart (according to them I was pretty darn close to being a heretic because of difference in one doctrine on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit). I remember getting out of the chat and thinking how unloving and unkind they were. At that point I prayed and decided to spend time just in God’s Word and not read a lot of the Reformed books anymore (I’ve read almost all of Sprouls, Whites, etc.). In interesting thing happened to me: my beliefs about God began to change. I once again came to have a deeper understanding of God’s love for all people. I also learned to have compassion and show love for those that I differed with on issues that do not involve doctrines that I consider to be essential to salvation. Another thing that has really ‘stuck out’ at me is how both Arminians and Calvinists use straw man arguments or in other ways distort what the ‘other side’ really believes. I guess I did not make my ‘point’ very well with the “Supralapsarian and Infralapsarian” statement. My point I guess was that as one who is a “Supralapsarian” do you believe that those who are “Infralapsarians” are heretics? Just because you disagree with someone on an issue that does not mean they are not saved. You believe strongly in Grace that is great. I would encourage you to show grace AND love towards others. November 11 at 6:08pm

Al: Matthew, because I defend the truth of God does not mean I am being unloving. Think before you make false presumptions about me. November 11 at 6:09pm	Al started this thread on Facebook by stating "Dave Hunt is a heretic and a BIG ONE! I hate all these things he keeps saying about James White, one of my favorite Calvinistic people" Al repeatedly calls those he disagrees with heretics. It is possible to defend the truth of God's Word without being caustic.

Al: Wow, and you even mention the heresy of God's love for all people, Matthew? Obviously it was not the God of Scripture who brought you to this lie. The Bible even openly refutes it and you still believe it, WOW. November 11 at 6:11pm	The Bible is very easily understood: God loves all people (click here for another article by John MacArthur on God's love). A person has to do a lot of Scripture 'twisting' to believe otherwise. Here are a few verses on God's love and God's desire for all to be saved. John 3:16"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (Joh 3:16 ESV)"(5 point Calvinists often twist these scriptures to say 'World' means only the elect. See John MacArthur (a more moderate Calvinist on this verse.) 1 John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 God's love was revealed among us in this way: God sent His One and Only Son into the world so that we might live through Him. (1Jo 4:7-9 CSB) 1 John 4:14 And we have seen and we testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. (1Jo 4:14 CSB) 1 Tim. 2:3 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (1Ti 2:3-4 NKJ) [God truly and honestly desires that all men be saved. His love does not extend to just the 'elect.'] 1 Tim 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. (1Ti 4:10 NAU) 1 Tim 4:10 In fact, we labor and strive for this, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of everyone, especially of those who believe. (1Ti 4:10 CSB) 2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2Pe 3:9 NAU) Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, (Tit 2:11 NKJ) Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has been revealed, bringing salvation to all people. (Tit 2:11 NLT) Ezekiel 18:23 "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? (Eze 18:23 NAU) 32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live." (NAU). Ezekiel 33:11 "Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?' (Eze 33:11 NAU) Joel 2:13 and rend your hearts and not your garments." Return to the LORD your God, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love; and he relents over disaster. (Joe 2:13 ESV)

Al: also Calvinism does not distort the Bible in any way. It lines up exactly with what the Bible says. There is no excuse for the ways ARMINIANS distort the truth, as they have no valid means of proving their heretical points. November 11 at 6:12pm	Al believes the 'system' or theological framework of Calvinism is perfect. Which version of Calvinism is perfect? (Calvinists disagree on many issues among themselves). "...they have no valid means of proving their heretical points. " I can quote many Bible verses... but these would not be accepted by staunch 5 Point Calvinists like Al because they have been so twisted to force them to agree with Calvinist interpretation that they are unrecognizable. Personally, I do not believe any theological system lines up 'perfectly' with the Bible. Sometimes there needs to be less defending of man made 'theological systems' and more time reading the Bible and letting the Bible be its own best interpretor.

Al: Mike, I would caution you out of brotherly advice to pay attention as to who you add as friends on FB. We do not need heretics countering the divine truths that we talk about which Scripture makes very very clearly. I can't stand how much I hate the disgusting heresy that God loves all people so much. November 11 at 6:15pm	Al calls me a heretic here. Up to this point I had not said whether I was Calvinist, Arminian, or somewhere in between, but because I don't automatically dismiss Dave Hunt (whom I also disagree with on some issues) as being a heretic on his way to hell, Al assumes I am too. Remember, Al said previously in this discussion "Matthew, because I defend the truth of God does not mean I am being unloving. Think before you make false presumptions about me. " I think this is being unloving. I have had many theological discussions over the years, but have never been called a heretic. I truly believe though that Al is just living out his view of God: God does not love all people, hence there is no reason for his "elect" followers to also love (or show love) to all people. We WILL become like the God we worship!

Matthew: Hi Lori: Dave Hunt does not label himself as an Arminian He tries to pick a middle ground between Calvinism and Arminianism I would place him closer to being an Arminian Just like those who believe in Reformed theology often differ on some doctrines, there are a variety of beliefs on the Arminian side. November 11 at 6:16pm

Al: there is no such thing as middle ground. As James White says, 'anyone who is trying to be moderate between the two is an Arminian who is afraid to admit it.' November 11 at 6:16pm

Al: the 5 points of Calvinism all stand together like a chain. Either you are a fully furnished 5-point Calvinist or you are no Calvinist at all. November 11 at 6:18pm ·	Here I have to agree with Al: all 5 points stand or fall together. They are part of a theological system that depends on each 'point' or pillar to support the others. If one falls, the 'logic' behind the system crumbles.

Matthew: Al: I agree with you 100% that Dave Hunt is not Reformed. He holds to beliefs though that Arminianism has not traditionally held (such as eternal security). So if someone holds a belief that is not reformed and not Arminian what should ...we call it? (Just because a belief is not 'reformed' does not necessarily mean it is by default an Arminian belief. I have not read Hunt in several years, though I have most of his books (as well as Sprouls, whites, and a lot of other reformed books). I would like to go look it up... can you tell me in which book he says that Calvinists (I always preferred the term Reformed) are not saved? Thanks, Matt November 11 at 6:25pm

Matthew: I agree totally that the 5 points of Calvinism 'all stand together like a chain.' If a person rejects one point the chain crumbles. Each of the 5 points build upon each other and are intertwined. November 11 at 6:28pm ·

Matthew : ‎"We do not need heretics countering the divine truths ..." Now I'm a heretic for disagreeing with you?. Yes, you are truly a man of great compassion and love... November 11 at 6:34pm	At this point Al blocked me from seeing any of his posts.

Bill Calvinism isn't really Calvinism it is just a label for election. It can be traced back to the Synod of Dort where the whole reformed church convened to hear the arguments of the followers of Arminius. As both Calvin and Arminius were dead.... The reformed church wanted to reaffirm this precious doctrine that they had fought with their blood to secure. The Arminian's said the same thing when they arrived at the table, they said; "we believe just like you do, we just have a few things that we don't agree with." The Synod rejected them as heretics and they ended up walking out, as they could not defend their perverted doctrine, and it is perverted! They have a different God - their God is not sovereign enough to elect those to salvation. They have a different Jesus - their Jesus didn't mean what he said when he talked about those whom the father had given to him, many are called but few are chosen, etc.. If the spirit of truth be in a born again believer, he will affirm the doctrine of election as being scriptural truth. Historical Christianity has always rejected the heresy of freewill, but today men are men pleasers, if you want to build churches you can't tell the congregation that God has only chosen a select few for salvation and the rest can't come! Why, you would clear out most buildings. They would say; I could never serve a God like that, he is a monster! I have the evidence so there is no dispute that's what the average Arminian has determined about a God who elects those unto eternal life. There is no middle ground, God doesn't have middle grounds, he does the choosing. In fact he does it all! [indulge me for a bit more] Calvin was a brilliant man of God. However,many ascribe election theology to Calvin, I adamantly disagree as he wasn't born when these passages of scripture were inspired. continued... It is GOD who draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65), creates a clean heart (Psalm 51:10), appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48), works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4), chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13-14), grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29), grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26), calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9) causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3), predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30), predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5), predestines us according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11), makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13). November 11 at 6:41pm	"...the Synod of Dort where the whole reformed church convened to hear the arguments of the followers of Arminius." This is correct. The vast majority of those who showed up (some groups like the Episcopalians and others did not) were reformed Presbyterians. There was no attempt to be fair and objective during the Synod of Dort. The Calvinistic leaders came in with their minds made up. Many of the Arminians lost their pastorships, some were even killed as a result of the ruling of this Synod. Below is a short article about the Synod of Dort: SYNOD OF DORT Arminius’s views stirred up considerable controversy in Holland, even among his colleagues. Therefore Arminius appealed to the government to convene a synod to deal with the issue. Arminius died in 1609, nine years before the synod met. The Synod of Dort convened by the States-General on November 13, 1618, until May 9, 1619. Eighty-four members attended, fifty eight being Dutch. With the president and first secretary being strict Calvinists, and the entire Dutch delegation orthodox in view, the fate of the Remonstrants was sealed. Simon Episcopius, the Arminian leader and Arminius’s successor as professor at Leiden, and twelve other Arminians were summoned as defendants before the Synod. The five articles of the Remonstrants were rejected and five canons of Calvinism adopted, along with the Belgic Confession and the Heidelberg Catechism.2 Persecution followed the Synod’s decision. Two hundred Arminian pastors lost their posts; the statesman John van Olden Barneveldt was beheaded; Hugo Grotius was condemned and imprisoned for life, but he escaped after two years. Many Arminians fled the country. 2 2. Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom, 3 vols., 4th ed. (Reprint. Grand Rapids: Baker, 1977), 1:513–14. The canons of the Synod of Dort are given on 3:550–97. Paul P. Enns, The Moody Handbook of Theology (Chicago, Ill.: Moody Press, 1997, c1989), 490. What they did in killing those they disagree with though is no different than what John Calvin also did (he ensured that several of those he disagree with when he ruled Geneva were also killed, the most famous being Servetus who was slowly burned Alive at the stake).

Mike: Sorry Al, Matthew has been my friend for 12 years now and always will be. November 11 at 6:43pm	I pray that I am still counted as his friend after he reads this.

Bill: Jesus has been my Lord much longer Mike....and of course he always will be. November 11 at 6:58pm

Al: well good luck Mike. Perhaps God will use you to bring him to the truth. I know I do not add heretics. November 11 at 7:44pm	Once again... Al manifests his superiority by calling me and those he disagrees with 'heretics.'

Lori: yes mathew i totally agree with you. unfortunately i was in a church that was extremely Arminian for a long time and it left me frightened and confused. they said i could loose my salvation. so i was always frightened that if i sinned id end up in hell but then i went to a baptist church and they taught me the truth and show me scripture to back it up that i was sealed until the day of redemption it was a HUGE relief to my soul. and yes your right Dave hunt is neither Arminian nor Calvinist he is a biblical Christian. that understands its by grace we are saved through faith and NOT OF OURSELVES lest no man should boast. November 12 at 4:01am	Conservative Arminianism of course does not teach that a 'sin' will result in salvation being lost. We are saved by grace through faith (salvation is not earned by good or bad works). Jacob Arminius did not teach much on whether a believer could lose their salvation. Most Arminians though have taught that if a believer chooses to reject their faith and walk away from God, they will as a result of their rejection of their faith no longer be saved. A Calvinist though also has to deal with this issue: Calvinism teaches that a true believer cannot (will not) continue in sin. If they do 'fall away' then they were never saved. Calvin (and some other Calvinists) believed that God could and did give some 'non-elect' folks enough grace so that they truly believed they were part of the elect and saved, though they were not. If a Calvinist ceases to do good works (i.e. display the fruit of the Spirit in their lives) then they also should question their salvation (according to Calvinism).

Matthew: Hi Lori: the church I attend now is Presbyterian, but it is probably closer in theology to what is taught at many Baptist churches. The Baptist churches I have attended have generally had a real love for teaching the Bible. I guess Al doesn't want to talk anymore.... he has blocked me from seeing his posts. Al... you may hate and despise me but I promise you this... I will keep you in my prayers. November 12 at 9:19am	After this interaction on Facebook, God worked in my heart and after some searching I have found a new church (not reformed) I will begin attending with my family in mid-December.

Bill: Most Baptist churches are of the Arminian persuasion, another false Gospel, plus they have their 30 second prayer of heresy! November 12 at 9:24am	Baptists churches have many areas they disagree with Arminians on in regards to theology. Many Calvinists believe that anyone who is not a Calvinist has to be an Arminian. I believe though that just because someone does not agree with Calvinists teachings does not mean they automatically believe in Jacob Arminius' beliefs. They may hold to some Arminian beliefs, and some other 'non-arminian' beliefs. According to Bill and Al (and a significant number of other Calvinists) those who hold to anything but Calvinism are teaching and believing a false gospel. If someone believes a false gospel then they are not saved. In essence, Bill is saying that those in Baptists churches are not saved (later we learn that if they were saved they would 'run' away from the Baptist church according to Bill).

Matthew: So Bill, I'm assume that you believe that anyone attending a Baptist Church is also a heretic? And I have to ask... what is a 30' second pray of heresy'? November 12 at 9:37am

Bill : Oh, you haven't heard Matthew? Take your pick transcript or video or both if you like. This comes from Paul Washer with great Baptist leanings, but he's not the only one who recognizes this pure adulterated heresy, it's been around for some... time. I'm guessing you haven't heard the truth about Billy Graham either? Lastly Matthew, God can regenerate anyone he wants, even in false doctrine, but once they see the truth they will run from the heresy of freewill. It's a two hour video but, you will learn a lot if you like truth! http://adidab.wordpress.co m/2009/05/05/paul-washer-t ranscript-03-ten-indictmen ts/ November 12 at 9:44am	"God can regenerate anyone he wants, even in false doctrine,.." According to 5 point Calvinism, the believer is regenerated (born again) before they can have faith or believe. Hence, the unsaved do NOT have to hear the true gospel before being saved.

Matthew: I don't have time right now to watch a two hour video (I'm at work...) ... I was hoping for the cliff - notes version of what you meant by "30 second prayer of heresy.' I assume you mean folks that go up front, pray thinking they received Christ, then go out and live a sin filled life. (i.e. no fruit of the Spirit in their lives). November 12 at 9:50am

Lori: also i have heard how Calvinists and Pentecostals and methodists etc have been called by god.. by his precious grace.. November 12 at 9:52am

Lori: yes matthew soo true I've seen the false converts as well. in fact i knew a young boy whose father was the assistant pastor and he thought he was saved and so did the church..HOWEVER he only got saved recently when god showed him how evil he was and now has the fruits of the Spirit working through him...much love you guys November 12 at 9:54am

Lori: billy graham is in bed with the catholic church and NEVER has been saved he is a freemason. so you can't compare anyone to him. he thinks there are many ways to god...heres a video for you to look at http://www.youtube.com/wat ch?v=4MZWug3Q...Avs&feature=fvw November 12 at 9:58am

Bill: Matthew you like to pray? Pray that God would remove the knife from my heart that this 30 second prayer has caused for numerous years. It has filled the church with tares, false converts! Pray that God would remove the blinders of men who defend the heresy of freewill [like yourself], pray that men would stop trying to build God's church! Pray that God would bring judgment on his church, thereby cleaning it up, so that the true body can get back to true worship. Ask God to take the blinders off all of those whom are his elect, and keep the blinders on those who aren't! I could clip the "cliff notes" as you call them and make your job easy, but you need to take it all in, when you have time of course. Take the time, pray over these things, I mean really pray! Many say their prayers today, not many pray! Ask God to take us to the depths of his word, teach us to pray according to his will. Come back after you have had a chance to digest this message, until then keep these things in prayer....Won't you? November 12 at 10:03am	Bill seems to have an 'axe' to grind against churches inviting individuals to make a 'decision' for Christ. He focuses on the 'decision' aspect. I would focus on the fact that if the person has made a true decision for Christ - not in his or her own strength, but prompted, convicted and empowered by the Holy Spirit. His or her life will be changed. If there is no fruit, there is no real change or salvation experience. He does not believe that unbelievers should be asked to accept Christ it appears. Again, I think though he misunderstands the true cause of the problem he has with the gospel invitation. The problem as Paul Washer explains is that folks are invited to accept Christ and then many go on to live sin filled lives that are in habitual and continuing sin. The Bible is very plain in its teaching that a true believer will not continue in ongoing habitual sin (the Arminian might say they have rejected their salvation if they do, while the Calvinist might say they were never saved). Either way, the person is not saved and needs to repent.

Lori: well Bill Christ called me by his loving kindness he spoke scripture to me in my dreams that i had never heard of before and didn;t understand it. i heard the true gospel in June 88 and after a lot of fighting it one day in Aug. 88 god literally took the veil away from my eyes i repented and asked god to forgive me for my wickedness and that also to forgive me for living for the devil. i did not do my 33 secs of prayer that is just plain ridiculous. you are really exaggerating also know a baptist young man who was in bed with his gf and god showed him his wickedness and very soon after that he repented but it took months and months were god was drawing him with his loving kindness and i have scores of testimonies where god REALLY calls them and the fruit is there. November 12 at 10:04am

Bill: Lori, I never go by anyone's experience, I go by the word of God. The 30 second prayer is not in scripture, in fact if you study history is only recently appeared. Let's learn by studying his word, Historical Christianity is filled with men, words, creeds, confessions that have guided the church. It is so lost today, and that's the reasons we have so many folks who know not God, but claim too. Jesus will tell them away from me I never knew you! November 12 at 10:08am	Again, calling folks to repent and accept Christ as their Savior is not the problem. The problem is a view of the Gospel that does not require holiness and obedience (which is s a sign of the change God has done on the believers inside. If there is no fruit, there is no life.) Regeneration and saving faith will result in a desire to live for and please God.

Lori: so Bill you see everyones heart then? you can watch billions of souls hearts then? i never said not to look at scripture i told you how i got saved... November 12 at 10:11am

Lori: and i agree with you there is noo 30 second repentance in scripture watch what I'm writing. I'm saying that i know many baptist who were called by god and it took them ages to get saved.. and god took the veil away from their eyes..please read... what i said. November 12 at 10:12am

Bill: Lori, maybe you could being by praying the prayer I asked Matthew to pray. November 12 at 10:12am

Lori: what are you talking about Bill November 12 at 10:13am

Lori: I'm saved 22 years now and don't have to prove myself to you I'm sealed by god period. you've talk to me for 30 sec and made a decision to think you know me? November 12 at 10:14am

Bill: Lori, please stop typing and read! Your saying things I never said. November 12 at 10:15am

Bill: here's more on prayer from my post today....add it to my prayer to Matthew.... What shall we say to those who pray, yet give but little time to their prayers ? We are obliged to say that they show at present very little of the mind of Christ Asking little, they must expect to have little. Seeking little, they cannot be surprised if they possess little. It will always be found that when prayers are few, grace,strength, peace, and hope are small. It may be feared, in the list of baptized people, many who rise up in the morning without prayer, and without prayer lie down at night, many who never speak one word to God. Are they Christians ? It is impossible to say so. A praying Master, like Jesus, can have no prayerless servants. The Spirit of adoption will always make a man call upon God. To be prayerless is to be Christless, Godless, and in the high road November 12 at 10:18am

Lori: hi Bill thanks for the convo but have to go for my dinner its 16.30pm here so I'm gonna start dinner.. the lord bless ya :) November 12 at 10:27am

Matthew: Hi Bill: I will respond to the excellent message of Paul in several postings below. Before I do, I thought I would comment on your statement: “Pray that God would remove the blinders of men who defend the heresy of freewill [like yourself]...,” Unless I miss-typed something, I don’t believe I ever said I believed in ‘Freewill’… at least not as Calvinists often state it. I do not believe that any person can come to God of their own free will. I do not believe that any person of their own free will has any desire to come to Christ or to make Jesus the Lord of their live. The unsaved have no desire for God… in fact they are opposed to God to the core of their being. God has to change them, empower them, give them the desire. November 12 at 11:00am	I often prefer not to use certain theological terms (such as 'Free Will') because different groups interpret the term differently. The Calvinist interpret Free Will differently than Arminians. Most Arminians (including Jacob Arminius) DO believe that men are sinful and their will has been damaged, subjugated, and in bondage to sin and their sin nature. They desire to sin by nature. Arminians though believe that God (through His grace, empowerment, and conviction) can work in the hearts of the unsaved, and only through His grace and drawing can they do good (in this case accepting Jesus as their Savior through the Faith that God has brought about in their hearts). Arminians are not pelagians though Calvinists often distort Arminian beliefs.

Matthew: Hi Bill: After reading through Paul's transcript, unless I missed something, I completely agree with everything he said. I book marked the link for later. excellent! Ten Points: 1. First of all, the first indictment: a practical denial of the sufficiency of Scripture, 2. The second indictment: An ignorance of God. 3. The third indictment: A failure to address man’s malady. 4. Our fourth indictment: An ignorance of the gospel of Jesus Christ 5. An ignorance of the doctrine of regeneration, an ignorance of the doctrine of regeneration. 6. Fifth indictment: An unbiblical gospel invitation. 7. Sixth indictment: Ignorance regarding the nature of the Church. 8. Eighth indictment: A silence on separation. [living a life of holiness] 9. I have a ninth indictment . . . Psychology and sociology have replaced the Scriptures with regard to the family. 10. (I didn’t see a tenth point… ) November 12 at 11:03am	I took the time to read through a rather lengthy sermon transcript by Paul Washer. While Bill agreed with the teachings of Paul Washer (and he believed the teachings to be Biblical), so did I! There is nothing Paul Washer taught that could not be agreed upon by an Arminian or 'Other' Christian.

Matthew: He had several statements on Love, We must reach out with the truth in love. The truth is hard and should not be compromised, but the truth can be shared in love: “If you are a younger minister, I do not want you to get caught up in these truths and take them back and storm your church without love.” and “When you do not deal specifically, passionately, lovingly with men and their depraved condition, the Holy Spirit is nowhere around you.” November 12 at 11:04am

Matthew: Paul Washer does not automatically condemn Wesley (though he may disagree with him on some biblical teachings, he does not consider him to be a heretic). “I’ll tell you what the issue is. Regeneration. And that is why I can have fellowship with Wesley and Ravenhill and Tozer and all the rest because regardless of where they stood on the other issues they believed that salvation could not be manipulated by the preacher, that it was a magnificent work of the power of almighty God. And with them, therefore, I stand, that it was a work of God.” And “Have you ever sat down on an airplane or maybe met someone in a marketplace you didn’t even know and you being maybe Baptist or Mennonite or this or that, but truly evangelical, truly Christian., you talk to him for no more than few minutes and you discover, “He is a believer. This is a live one.” November 12 at 11:04am

Matthew: Paul Washer believes that there are Christians in other denominations (in fact he stated there were probably some in the audience to whom he was speaking… The topics he is discussing are not Calvinism VS Arminianism issues: “My dear friends..., and I am going to say this bluntly, I know that there are Calvinists here and I know that there are Arminians here and I know that there are all sorts of strange animals in between, but I want you to know this. Although I am leaning more toward—I guess I call myself a five point Spurgeonist—I want you to know this. Calvinism is not the issue.” --------------------- Thanks again for the link to this transcript! November 12 at 11:05am

Bill: we were talking about the 30 second prayer and it's heresy, or did you forget that....Not Arminianism after all of what [five posts] you danced around this part. I do believe this is where we left off, wasn't it? You say. “Brother Paul…” ...Yes, in the same way that infant baptism, in my opinion, was the golden calf of the Reformation, for the Baptists and the Evangelicals and everyone else who has followed them today, I will tell you, that sinners’ prayer has sent more people to hell than anything on the face of the earth. You must stay with the topical change when it occurs. So, we digress Paul says he's a five point Spurgeonist by the way, whatever that means. When your tight with the Baptist's if you want any work, it's best not to discuss Calvinism I know where he's coming from. Were you not defending this man who claims Calvinists are unsaved? I believe you said he was not Arminian or a Calvinist If a man defends another man who is Arminian I assume he's one of that crowd. Paul Washer preaches Calvinist doctrine, whether he wants to identify or not, isn't my problem. November 12 at 1:39pm	Instead of responding to any of the several responses to transcript that he wanted me to read, he castigates me by saying I had switched topics. I believe Bill is getting worked up and upset over the wrong issue (i.e. saying the sinners prayer vs. a gospel teaching that allows believers to live a life of habitual sin... they are not the same thing!). "You must stay with the topical change when it occurs." Does anyone else see pride and arrogance here? Who made him the determiner of all things? The main focus of this entire debat on Facebook has been related to Calvinism vs. Arminianism. "Were you not defending this man who claims Calvinists are unsaved?" Once again (like Al) Bill slanders a brother in Christ by attributing to him a belief he (Dave Hunt) has not stated. It is interesting how these Calvinists can call anyone who disagrees with them "heretics" but try to discredit someone (Dave Hunt) who never said what they try to attribute to him... "Paul Washer preaches Calvinist doctrine, whether he wants to identify or not, isn't my problem." Paul Washer preaches Biblical Doctrine in this transcript (I have never read anything else by him so I can't comment on his teachings except in this sermon transcript).. I am not a Calvinist yet I agree with what Washer taught in this transcript.

Matthew: Hi Bill: "Were you not defending this man who claims Calvinists are unsaved? " Actually what I had said previously was that after having read most of his books I don't remember him ever saying Calvinists were not saved. If he did say that I... would of course disagree with him... just as I would disagree with someone on Facebook who says that a person is a heretic (hence unsaved) if they are NOT a Calvinist "If a man defends another man who is Arminian I assume he's one of that crowd." Did I defend his beliefs? I don't think so. What I did defend is that I believe he is a Christian. (I don't believe everyone has to believe exactly as I do in order to be saved). "Paul Washer preaches Calvinist doctrine, whether he wants to identify or not, isn't my problem." I agree with what Paul taught in the transcript that I read. Whether you are Reformed, 'Someplace in between', or Arminian, a Christian. could believe 100% what he said. As far as the '30 second prayer' I agree that there are many, many folks in churches who said a prayer one time in their lives and believe they are saved, yet show no holiness or purity in their lives. I have met many people over the years that do not have the slightest interest in things of God. They live lives of habitual sin, yet believe they are saved because of a prayer. Sadly they will someday recognize their error too late. The Bible is very plain in teaching that a true disciple of Christ will have the fruit of the Spirit. If there is no fruit, there is no life. This fruit of the spirit should also be displayed/exercised towards other Christians whom we may disagree with (1 John 2:9 "Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness..."See More November 12 at 2:12pm	I tried to point out that Bill and Al had done what they had accused Dave Hunt of doing (calling a heretic/unsaved of those they disagree with) but they did not see hypocrisy of their statement.

Bill: I have no idea who is my brother is when they disagree with scripture Matthew, and when I preach to one; whether he's save or not is not for me to decide. The truth as all costs, I'll worry about offending someone when I say my prayers asking for forgiveness. Many use the unloving scriptures today to persuade others that they are wrong in their insistence of truth, warning the God fearing man or women to accept them and their doctrine of demons with open arms or they are in violation of scripture, what a foolish argument, and worse, misplaced and misquoted scripture always taken out of context. November 12 at 3:59pm	When they disagree with Bills Calvinistic interpretation.. not necessarily Scripture. Many Calvinists do not go to the extreme on some of these issues (especially on the topics dealing with God's love) as do Bill and Al.

In conclusion, I know that many Calvinists are humble, compassionate, and loving. There are many though who have taken Calvinism to its extreme. My friend has told me several times in the last few weeks 'thank you' for introducing him to the 'gospel of grace.' I feel very sad that I am the person responsible for introducing him to Calvinism. At the time I was a 5 point and committed Calvinist Since then I have come to believe there is much error in Calvinist teachings. I still like emphasis on God's Sovereignty, but not at the expense of the rest of God's nature (such as His Love). Any doctrine or teaching can be extreme and unbiblical if isolated from the whole of Biblical teaching. To my friend and brother in Christ I ask your forgiveness for introducing you to Calvinism I am truly sorry. Matthew

Why I Am No Longer a Calvinist - A Facebook Debate